SUBJECTS: Voice to Parliament; Uluru Statement from the Heart.
JANE NORMAN, HOST: Let’s bring in our Tuesday political panel now. I am joined in the studio by Assistant Defence Minister Matt Thistlethwaite and Shadow Finance Minister Jane Hume. Welcome to you both. Let’s start with you, Matt. I wanted to ask you about this issue of the referendum. Were you surprised that the Nationals came out so early in the process to oppose this and what impact do you think it will have?
MATT THISTLETHWAITE, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR DEFENCE: I was surprised and disappointed, I must say. It appears that they have not even tried. There is still a long way to go in this campaign and they came out so early and dismissed the idea without the consultation that I think is necessary to make a decision like that. The Voice as an issue has been around since 2017, obviously with the Uluru Statement from the Heart, and it is about respecting the wishes of First Nations Australians about how government should interact with them, and giving them the right to be consulted about issues affecting them and their welfare, and that is what they are saying they want from government and I believe we have a responsibility to at least hear them out and, certainly, to work with them to try and make the Voice a reality.
NORMAN: One of the criticisms has been, putting aside the Nationals criticism, but it has been about the detail. We know what this referendum is designed to do is to enshrine a Voice, a committee made up of First Nations Australians to advise the Parliament on issues affecting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. When will we see an education campaign, so people know the finer details of this?
ASSISTANT MINISTER: You will start to see that in the New Year and in the Caucus today, in the Labor Party, we have approved some changes to the Referendum (Machinery Provisions) Act that will make it necessary to modernise that Act and facilitate more modern discussion around constitutional reform. There is already a fair bit of detail around the Voice in the Marcia Langton and Tom Calma report, we have a consultative committee that’s been set up of First Nations leaders working with government and more of that detail will be released earlier in the year.
NORMAN: Okay, Jane Hume, let’s bring you in. Are you satisfied with the level of detail at the moment and where does the Liberal Party stand on the issue of the Voice?
JANE HUME, SENATOR FOR VICTORIA: There is no detail on what model is that will fundamentally change the way our Parliament and Parliamentary democracy operates. And I think it is fair and reasonable that the Australian people get some answers to questions rather than just get told this will be fine, don’t worry about it, if you don’t like it, you are racist. It is the position of the Labor Party right now. The National Party came out with some internal processes, and we respect that decision as their party, the Liberal Party has not come to a position yet. We want to be generous of spirit and really open-minded about this. But how do we make a decision without details? Every time Anthony Albanese is asked a question, he either doesn’t know the answer or if he does, it raises more questions. Until we get there, we have plenty of time before this referendum, we will make a decision when we get there.
NORMAN: And will the Liberal Party actually settle on a party wide position? Or might it be like previous votes where MPs are given a conscience vote to vote how they like, how their electorates want?
HUME: Well, even a decision like that can’t be made until we know exactly what it is that we’re voting on. This isn’t just a let’s put something in the Constitution that says there’s going to be a body. What is that body? How is it going to make its decisions? How is it going to be constituted? Who’s going to be on it? How many people are going to be on it? This is really complicated stuff and just saying, don’t worry, it’ll be fine, isn’t really good enough.
NORMAN: Matt Thistlethwaite, your response to that? Are these the questions that will be answered before we actually get to the point of voting in this referendum?
ASSISTANT MINISTER: Yeah, we’ll certainly get to more detail in the New Year and that work is being done now between Government and the consultative group. I reject the notion that Jane put that in saying that the Labor Party believes that if anyone doesn’t agree with it, that they’re being racist, I completely reject that notion. Every single Australian is entitled to their view and will be respected on their view on this. But it is an important reform for us to make as a nation. We’ve been talking for close to 15-20 years now about recognising the true history of Indigenous support for our nation and connection to country and putting that in our Constitution. The encouraging thing is that the Prime Minister is right, there is momentum building for it. All of the published opinion polls in all the states and territories, and that’s important in the context of a referendum, indicate broad support for the Voice and the notion of consulting First Nations Australians about issues affecting them. The other argument I reject is that it’s fundamentally changing the nature of our democracy and our parliamentary system. That’s not true. It will be an advisory body to the Parliament. The Parliament will not have to accept the recommendations of that body. It will be a body that advises the Parliament. In the past, I think what Indigenous Australians are really saying is we want something enshrined in the Constitution so it can’t be taken away, as it has been by governments in the past, with something like ATSIC. They want that enshrined in the Constitution, so they have the right to be consulted in the future. And I think we have to respect that.
NORMAN: We understand that the Government, as part of these legislative changes you are making this week, will be deciding that the Government will not fund the yes or the no campaign, which is a departure from previous referenda. What’s behind that decision?
ASSISTANT MINISTER: Well, in the past, the way the Referendum Act worked was there was a 2000-word essay that was written by Members of Parliament on opposing sides and that was then sent out to households. There was no mention in the Act about the internet and the fact that we’ve got now modern forms of technological advancement and communications. So, we’re modernising that Act and we don’t want this to be a divisive argument. We want this to be an issue that unites Australians. So, we don’t want the Government to be funding a divisive argument, when we see this as an opportunity to bring Australians together around a notion of consulting First Nations Australians and providing them with respect.
NORMAN: Is that something the Liberal Party would back, not have public funding for a yes or no campaign?
HUME: Well, this legislation really hasn’t only been released this week. My great concern here is that we’re going to go through a really important process, a referendum, without fully educating the people who are making a decision. And by not funding yes and no campaigns, by not funding the traditional booklet that’s gone out with every referendum from day one, especially, you’re continuing to hide from the public what this referendum really means, what the Voice of Parliament will actually do and how it will affect their lives. I think more education is far better than less education on a system like this. And there are a lot of people that don’t necessarily go to the internet, go to the website, the Government’s website, to get their information, sending a booklet to ordinary Australians who are going to make that vote. A lot of people would actually appreciate it.
ASSISTANT MINISTER: There will be an education campaign that will be funded by the government, and that will start in the New Year, and that will roll out…
HUME: [interjecting]For the yes and no campaign?
ASSISTANT MINISTER: That will roll out the basis, the reason why the government is advancing this important reform, what it will mean for our system of democracy, how it will work, and how Australians can participate…
HUME: [interjecting]But will it be from both sides?
ASSISTANT MINISTER: Well, as I said, Jane, we want this to be an issue that unites Australians rather than divides us, and that’s why we made that decision. I think it’s important that this legislation, the changes to the Referendum Act will go to the appropriate parliamentary committee and they will conduct an inquiry and every Australian will have the opportunity to have their say on whether or not they believe these reforms are appropriate. As the Attorney General has said, it’s been 23 years since we’ve had a referendum in Australia, we’re out of practice and the Act is not up to date and we need to update it.
HUME: My concern, Matt, is that if you do it this way, you’re going to start looking shifty and you’re setting this up for failure. We want to see a Voice, we want to see Indigenous recognition in the Constitution, we want to see you succeed, but you are going to fail unless you are honest with the Australian people.
ASSISTANT MINISTER: Well, that’s why we’re introducing those reforms now, so they’ve got plenty of time. They’ll go to the committee for people to have their say on them and we can basically spend the first half of next year getting this reform right in terms of the Act and how it will be delivered.
NORMAN: Just on the Voice, so we’re actually running out of time, sadly, because question time is rapidly approaching. But Jane Hume yesterday it was said, I think by Sarah Hanson-Young, Green Senator, that what the Nationals have done is in opposing this, they’re going to find themselves on the wrong side of history. Are you worried that’s maybe where the Liberal Party is going to find itself, if indeed you come to a position that there are too many questions left unanswered?
HUME: I think there’s too many hypotheticals in that question because we haven’t got enough detail to get to any position at all at the moment. Most importantly, though, what the Nationals said is that the Voice doesn’t address Indigenous disadvantage and that should be the most pressing issue right now for all Australians. If you really want to ensure that Indigenous Australians are treated equally and have the same opportunities as everybody else, that should be the number one issue.
NORMAN: But I guess the coalition was in power for nearly ten years and the argument has been made that the government had a chance to be narrowing those gaps in terms of Indigenous disadvantage and here we are.
HUME: There’s no doubt that there is an intractable problem here, but that doesn’t mean that we should give up on it. In fact, we should be dedicating more resources, more intellectual power, more new ideas into closing the gap.
NORMAN: All right, and Matt Thistlethwaite, last word to you on this, because, sadly, we have run out of time, but when it comes to the need for broad cross-party support, you’re saying there’s a whole new generation of voters now and you don’t think that that’s going to be sort of the key to getting this referendum over the line?
ASSISTANT MINISTER: Yeah, certainly younger voters are going to be crucial. If you’re under 40, you’ve never voted in a referendum in Australia, but I’m encouraged by the discussions and the conversations that I’m having with younger Australians. I think that they understand that our Constitution doesn’t reflect the true history of Australia and that First Nations Australians have made a great contribution to this country and that they deserve the right to be consulted about issues affecting them. And that’s what the Voice is about.
NORMAN: Okay, Matt Thistlethwaite, Jane Hume, thanks for your time today. I hoped to cover many more topics, but sadly we’ve run out of time.
ASSISTANT MINISTER: Thanks Jane.
